Curse

BigTru · Aug 05, 2005, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I always here people talking trash about Blood Necroes, saying how useless they are. Their main argument seems to be that their damage output is mediocre and that they sacrifice raw damage for the ability to steal health, which they find useless with a healer.
I'm suprised the profession is so underated.

While yes, our damage output will no usually match that of an Elementalists, we are saving the Monk energy healing us. You WILL take a few strays, do not kid yourself. Our healing helps us as much as it hurts the enemy.

Furthermore, there are quite a few Necromancer spells that require health sacrifice. Instead of depending on the healer to babysit me while I'm killing myself, I prefer to throw on life syphons on a couple enemies. This way I'm still doing decent damage while healing myself AND casting other spells.

Speaking of saving energy, Necromancers are one of the BEST support classes, right next to protection monk.

Health and Energy Buffs: Blood is Power (Energy), Blood Ritual (Energy), Well of Power (Health and Energy), Well of Blood (Health), Order of the Vampire (Health and Damage)

Ranger and Warrior Buffs: Order of the Vampire (Health and Energy), Order of Pain (Damage), Dark Fury (Adrenaline)

When you combine those with all the other various buffs you can get from Death and Curse magic, you have one hell of a support class.

Also, our damage output isn't half bad either. Here are 2 differant damaging techniques I can use.

Life Siphon + Life Transfer = Massive health degan which also gives me massive health regan. Helps the monks out on energy and does very good damage. I can reach the Degan cap quite easily with this.

Shadow Strike + Dark Pact (spam) + Vampiric Gaze = Shadow Strike is just for the initial attack. It heals me and does around 80ish damage. Then I can use Dark Pact as fast I can. Because I am constantly healing and damaging the oponent with vampiric gaze, the health sacrifice from Dark Pact seems non-existant.

Blood Necroes are quite a versatile job, yet they aren't too spread out to the point where they have no focus. Being versatile is very underated in PvE, where I feel it's much more important to be versatile. While some may find that this does not hold true to PvP, I have quite a successful PvP career with blood necromancing.

Yes, I am subject to Nature's Renewal, but so are most other casters. It hits us Necromancers and the Protection Monks the hardest. There is nothing I can say in regards to this, I will usually get my ass handed to me till my team can find out the ones who are spamming Natures Renewal and interrupt him when facing a spirit spam team.

When not facing a spirit spam team, I do quite well. While yes, Hexes can be removed (not quite as easily as conditions), I can pretty much spam all the essential hexes I need. Most good groups do carry a Martyr/Hex removal monk, but most Martyr monks are PURELY devoted to removing Hexes and Conditions, instead they are needed to help the other monk(s) heal. If they are busy removing my hexes and my other team mate's conditions, they are not healing.

So which profession do you feel is the most underated and why?

Note: This is not a thread to moan and whine, simply a thread to inform us about your profession. I'll admit, I was once close-minded. I'd see someone like a Hydromancer or Beastmaster and autimaticaly say in my head "Oh great, a gimp." (well, not those exact words, but I wasn't thrilled). I used to think like that till I started trying out various "gimped" profession choice and soon learned that they have just as much a chance to win as the other professions and that most professions are well balanced.

Tuna · Aug 05, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

I'd also say necros, or perhaps water eles. I really like the curses line, shame that the whole thing gets smashed by NR. Water eles can also be pretty good support characters, depending on who your fighting.

Ilya Khan · Aug 05, 2005, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Necros are the worst simply because their primary attribute is next to useless. Their lines are superb, but their primary is next to useless. Just my opinion

Asplode · Aug 05, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Soul Reaping is the sole reason a halls winning necro can putrid endlessly. 'Nuff said on that topic.

Water Eles have to be the least feared class in the game, even less feared than sword spec W/Mo's. *GASP!*

Ultimate_Gaara · Aug 05, 2005, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Id have to say necros, because eveyone underestimates their power, they think if you cant give and take heavy damage your useless, personaly i feel a lot better when a necro is in my group because they more than likely have blood ritual

i would aslo agree with water eles, the only water ele i have ever seen is the one in my guild

and coming in third place is of course memsers, once again, the whole weakness thing comes into play.. very underestimated

for the record, Mesmers and Necros rule all.. enough said

Rieselle · Aug 05, 2005, 06:57 AM // 06:57

It seems from most discussions that the classes are "pretty" balanced. But they're not "equal", so people can debate and whine and stuff.

I guess the problem with necros is not the problem with the class itself, but with necro primaries.

Why would I go necro primary, when I could go x/Nec, and get the benefit of Energy Storage (and related skills), Divine Favour (and related skills), etc etc, whilst still using the awesome "support" features of the necro?

So the problem is not that primary necro is bad, it's more that a secondary necro is better. Which is "unfun" (i wont say "unbalanced"). There should be distinct and compelling reasons to choose a Nec/X over a X/Nec. (in pve soul reaping even things out... but it doesnt make an overwhelming argument.)

Mesmer primaries also falls into this category somewhat, but Fast Casting at least has one interesting skill associated with it. And mesmers get more benefit out of pushing their atts higher with runes.

Compare Mesmers and Necros to the other classes:

X/Mo vs. Mo/X : "Without divine favour, you can't heal for sh*t"

X/War vs War/X : The armour makes a big difference. As a long time sufferer of trying to make a melee E/W, I can regretfully attest to that

X/E vs E/X : 16 att damage & the energy pool to use it.

R/X vs X/R : Dunno... the armour? Expertise doesnt affect much, it seems. (well, no spells anyway.)

Tourist · Aug 05, 2005, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Mesmers are another class that really gets the shaft from NR, given that some of their handier skills are hexes. Not all of them, luckily, but enough to cause trouble.

Necros I personally like to have around, because whatever it is they're doing, it's always handy and useful to have around. Blood necros doing secondary healing with well of blood, cursing necros doing debuffing work on enemies, and minion necros giving me a few extra targets to damage and distract the enemy(especially handy in UW for blocking aatxes away from the casters)...all useful things.

Same thing goes for rangers, with the possible exception of beastmaster types(since few that bring a pet along actually know how to use them for the best advantage). Archer and trapper rangers are damn handy to have, but I don't see a lot of demand for them or appreciation for their skills.

BigTru · Aug 05, 2005, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

I guess the problem with necros is not the problem with the class itself, but with necro primaries.

Why would I go necro primary, when I could go x/Nec, and get the benefit of Energy Storage (and related skills), Divine Favour (and related skills), etc etc, whilst still using the awesome "support" features of the necro?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilya Khan

Necros are the worst simply because their primary attribute is next to useless. Their lines are superb, but their primary is next to useless. Just my opinion

Please tell me how soul reaping is useless. In HoH/GvG, atleast 8 people must die before you win the battle. Say you have 10 points in Soul Reaping. That is +80 Energy you've just given yourself. And that's supposing that nobody get's ressed, none of your team members die, you're doing the standard 8 v 8, and there are no pets, minions, or spirits on the field.

I find it much more combat worthy than Energy Storage because after you use up the initial energy bonus you get from Energy Storage, it is useless.

Don't give me that crap that "you might already have max energy when somebody dies" because 10 seconds into the battle, I'm usually down half way on my energy. Also, about 95% of the time, I am not the first to be targeted.

Furthermore, you cannot use Necromancer Runes or Scar patterns as any other profession. How else can you get level 18 Horrors and Fiends or have level 18 in Blood/Curses?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

R/X vs X/R : Dunno... the armour? Expertise doesnt affect much, it seems. (well, no spells anyway.)

Are you kidding me? Any Ranger worth his salt will not go into battle with anything less than 12 Expertise (If he values using Ranger or Warrior skills)

Zeru · Aug 05, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Water eles are underrated by far outside of NR situations.

Necros just suck in organized pvp.

BigTru · Aug 05, 2005, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Necros just suck in organized pvp.

Wow, now that seems intelligent. Please elaborate.

Xue Yi Liang · Aug 05, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Well in PvE Necros aren't avoided as much as Mesmers are, it seems.

Necros seem to be welcome in most multiple-monk parties going to the FoW. As a monk I love to see that glowing Well of Power or Blood Ritual.

Mesmers, on the other hand tend to get shafted by PvE groups. Maybe it's because many ppl in parties don't know how to regard them - In fact, most folks find it tough to think outside of "We need Tank, Nuker or Healer." - Mesmer and Necro are none of those. But a Necro can give energy to monks, at least.

Ensign · Aug 05, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Warriors are the most underrated. Necros are the most overrated.

That is all.

Peace,
-CxE

Aug 05, 2005, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Allow me to put some insight on the underlying concepts skipped in this topic:

Soul Reaping is horrible outside of PvE and Tombs. You dont get enough kills to challenge Energy Storage, you cant control it, and you cant have more energy than your Max energy so it can go to waste.

Necros in general: Many times I've said necros have so many possibly useful skills, and are potentially,probably the best class in the game. This is mainly due to the Curse line having so many buffs for Physical damage, and some of the Blood support skills. However, doing the numbers on those skills, the behavior of hex removal, and just if it's really worth it with Naature's Renewal around and most necro skills in the Curse line go to the trash bin.

Life stealing is shit in 8v8 because necros dont get targeted enough for it to matter. The reason necros do so well in 4v4 is because you are a guaranteed target, and whatever monk happens to be on your team can safely ignore you. In 8v8 even if you do get focused, it'll only be a matter of time before you need help with healing.

Water Eles: Due to Nature's renewal they get the shaft. Assuming no NR environment ran wild, In GvG probably one of the few types of builds that automatically get a spot in someway or the other. Snares galore, decent damage, one of the best spells in the game(Maelstrom), doesn't require much energy management like Air or Fire, and have options for self-defense which is good because they are a prime target due to control of the battlefield being important.

Zeru · Aug 05, 2005, 07:38 AM // 07:38

The correct term to describe necro is limited. They can perform several roles well but honestly why would you want a primary?

1) Armor- 70 AL weak vs holy and 60+15 ranged. The first is a pos given the current metagame and the second, while better than some other caster armor, is still not that amazing.

2) Runes- Here's when you'll generally need a rune. Blood magic (BiP at 13, Orders at 16). Death Magic (putrid). Curses (pretty much never). Necros get the best mileage out of their attributes in the mid range, 5-8 or so. Kinda the opposite of rangers who basically have a requirement of 14 expertise and 12 marksmanship unless they're trapping. In other words, runes are rarely worth it.

3) Primary Attribute- Soul reaping is completely unlinked and is on par for worst/second worst skill (fast casting also is not that great). This is for several reasons. One, it's backloaded and you get it at the worst condition possible; someone dying. Unless the death was a mistake more are going to follow. Now that's great for you but does it really matter? If it's your team that's dying, you getting more energy ain't exactly going to save them. If it's the enemy team that's dying, you getting more energy may help speed the process up but is it that really big of a deal? In tombs it gets a bit more dicey in the non-1v1s. Altar maps and 6way ganks will have your fair share of 2v1s or 1v1v1ss etc in the same area, so you may be able to profit off of others deaths who aren't in your team/direct enemey. Also, SR triggers for spirits. Now this may seem amazing but it's not as big as you think. Spirits planted at the same time tend to die at the same time. Unfortunately you can't go past max energy (would be much better if you could). Also, mass spirit killing is prohibitive with the retarded nature of fertile season.

Those are the reasons for necro primary. Now necro secondary is a completely different story. They have several great spells, such as Rend enchants. In the current metagame with renewal spam going crazy, necros are even worse off. Putting NR and the current metagame aside, they're not so bad. Lingering isn't terrible. Shadow of Fear, Enfeebling Blood, rigor mortis, defile flesh, strip enchant, chillbains, plague touch, and necrotic transveral are all in the decent level for necro secondary. The problem with many necro skills is their recharge times. This makes them crappy in organized pvp, cool in arena, and absolutely amazing in pve. Good teams will take something like barbs off fast. With 30 seconds and being on for just a couple, it's simply not worth it.

Notice that I said that necros suck, not that they're useless. This is because they can fill a number of limited roles. Putrid spammer is awesome in tombs; it's close to mandatory to either have a putrid necro or a secondary with necrotic transveral if you want to hold the hall. Order spammer (pain/vampire) is very solid with the right teambuild (NR excluding). Disease is also a pretty popular part of the metagame currently. It's abundance makes martyr or draw/melandrus resilience setups popular (actually I've never seen the latter but it works) but it's still a possibility. A BiP necro is also a solid skill in the right setup.

However, other than this, Necros have extremely limited roles. Nobodys saying they're useless, just a good deal less useful than the other professions and only in specific situations.

edit blackace beat me to it

Takkun · Aug 05, 2005, 07:39 AM // 07:39

psh these topics r useless.

all classes are equal, and the only thing that should even be considered changed is Otyugh's Cry....

If people actually do think one skill is greater than another, than all the easier for me to stomp them in Arena.

Kakumei · Aug 05, 2005, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takkun

psh these topics r useless.

all classes are equal, and the only thing that should even be considered changed is Otyugh's Cry....

If people actually do think one skill is greater than another, than all the easier for me to stomp them in Arena.

psh this poster is useless

classes are not equal

that's why updates and patches and balance changes exist

Ultimate_Gaara · Aug 05, 2005, 08:05 AM // 08:05

The topic isnt if they are equal, its what is underated... there is a big diffrence

i think i saw someone say warriors were underrated, i kinda agree with thatm but they are more of a "person to blame" class...

I think im going to make a Me/N or N/Me and try my best to totaly rip up PvP... that should show some people...

Genos · Aug 05, 2005, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Hrmm, beastmasters are highly underated imho - ill be atarget long before my ept is, and the monk/caster realiss a bit two late that its not me beating them up.... same with water eles - necros and emsmers in general get thrown out, although i love them

Asplode · Aug 05, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Beastmaster's not THAT underrated, and if they're ignored they certainly won't be for long. For one, they have passive poison, 2 interrupts, knockdown, buffs that can't be NR'ed, and easy as pie energy management.

...of course, they're more a 4v4 spec, in my opinion.

As for warriors being underrated, I'd agree and disagree at the same time, almost like the beastmastery ranger. Think of it this way; your group may run a melee shutdown specialist, or make it the combined, albeit partial efforts of more people using their respective skills. The charging W/E aftershocker is weakened, blinded, crippled, faintheartedness or shadow of feared, but well, if the opposing group's relying on him for damage, that isht is coming off fast, and if you continue to ignore him, he'll tear you something vicious. NR spam takes hexes, martyr or draw conditions takes conditions; what's up now?

So what I'm trying to get at is; warriors are underrated, but only as long as he's got hexes and conditions piled on him like a bunch of $1 hookers.

Mr. Matt · Aug 05, 2005, 09:07 AM // 09:07

I'm going to have to say Mesmers are the most underrated. They can completely shaft the enemy's ability to fight, but because they don't 'nuke' or 'tank' or 'heal', your average Joe won't know what to do with them.